EP 74: Leading in Hard Times With Values and Boundaries with Kristen Campbell​, DPT

Uncategorized Mar 17, 2023


“Do you respect yourself when you look back on the hard times in your life?”

Do you look back on your hard times and feel good about how you led yourself and others? And when you go through a perfect storm of events in your life, what are the certainty anchors and relationships that helped you stay afloat when it felt hard to keep breathing?

Taking the time to honestly reflect on how we feel about ourselves and our choices during a hard time helps us stay present in how we want to lead and live when the next challenge comes our way. 

That’s why I wanted to talk with a few people who left me in awe of the care, forethought, and leadership they displayed throughout the pandemic. While everyone had their own stew of factors that complicated that time, leaders dealt with not only navigating the crisis themselves but offering guidance and vision for those they led.

Today’s guest is someone who knows that leading is not about perfection but instead about striving to improve while offering herself and others grace to screw it up and make mistakes while moving forward towards their collective commitments.

As a massage therapist and Doctor of Physical Therapy, Kristen Knightly Campbell is the Regional Director for Catalyst Physical Therapy and Wellness which has 3 clinics and 3 professional sports partnerships in San Diego, CA. 

From 2012-2016, Kristen also worked with the United States Soccer Federation with youth, Paralympic and Olympic-level teams. She was primarily with the US Women’s National Soccer Team as they prepared for and won the 2015 Women’s World Cup in Canada. In 2016, Kristen stepped away from traveling with the team to start her family, teach at Point Loma Nazarene University in the Masters of Kinesiology program and dive further into her leadership role at Catalyst.



Listen to the full episode to hear:

  • How Kristen navigated the early days of COVID advocating for her team while understanding the concerns of the owner, all while on maternity leave
  • Why having a foundation of real respect and trust with her boss is essential to resolving conflict
  • How letting go of perfectionism and welcoming vulnerability has evolved Kristen’s leadership style
  • How COVID has impacted not only the way they deliver services, but also relationships between staff and management
  • How Kristen has navigated the emotional toll of COVID with an immunocompromised child


Learn more about Kristen Knightly Campbell:


Learn more about Rebecca:



Scroll Down for The Full Episode Transcript:

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I don't have to live in overdrive anymore. I have to figure out a way to be mentally and physically healthy. I have to lead a better example because I don't want everyone to live in overdrive. That’s not the way you live. So, learning that I am enough, that I can be proud of myself, but I can also create healthy boundaries has been a huge change.

[Inspirational Music]

Rebecca Ching: Do you respect yourself when you look back on the hard times in your life? That question has stuck with me for over two decades. Now, it’s a question a colleague of mine asked while I was living overseas. She wanted to know how I felt about the choices I made while navigating a tragedy or crisis. Did I stand by the way I cared for myself and others during those times?

Now, I’m usually cautious about Monday-night-quarterbacking difficult life experiences without compassion and empathy as the critics abound within our own minds and in the world, ready to pick apart our most vulnerable and challenging times with ruthless precision. But her question stayed with me over the years real time, whispering in my ear as adversity showed up in my life and as I was invited to sit with clients and friends and colleagues, sorting through heartbreak and Sophie’s choice decisions. This question keeps me curious, real time in the thick of it. How am I aligned to my values, my boundaries, and how am I interacting with those around me?

Now, I'm wondering for you, do you look back on your hard times and feel good about how you led yourself and others? And when you go through a perfect storm of life events, what are the certainty anchors in relationships that helped you stay afloat when it felt hard to keep breathing?

Now, before we get into this really special episode today, I just want to encourage you, if you haven't already, please subscribe to The Unburdened Leader podcast, and if you have benefitted from this show, I’d be so honored if you left a review and a rating and shared it with someone you think may benefit from this program.


I'm Rebecca Ching, and you're listening to The Unburdened Leader, the show that goes deep with humans who navigate life’s challenges and lead in their own way. Our goal is to learn how they address the burdens they carry, how they learn from them and become better and more impactful leaders of themselves and others.

“Do I respect myself when I look back on the hard times?” I hear this question when I support people going through hard times and get curious with them about their values, their needs, their pain, their fears. And in our work together, we pay attention to how they want to look back on this moment in the future to offer direction in their choices today.

Now, I appreciate the cliche. Hindsight is 20/20. We sure see things clearer when we have space from an event or a difficult life experience, and if you know me or listen to the podcast, you know I love a good debrief in work and in life after a challenging experience so I can walk through key learnings and reflect on what I would do differently knowing what I know now. But gosh, in our world of talking heads who get paid ridiculous amounts of money to postmortem happenings that they really have no business uttering a word on, I do my best to restrain myself from adding to the noise. I’m not always successful, but I sure try. But shoot, we even see folks chasing likes and follows, capitalizing on tragedies of others.

Now, there are some great commentaries out there for sure, but most of it feels toxic and downright dangerous. But this question from my colleague about whether I respected myself during hard times in my life keeps me curious when adversity strikes in my life and in the lives of others.


[Sigh] But one of the things I grieve the most when I look back on challenging times is not being honest and true to myself or acting in ways that do harm to myself and others.

[Sigh] It’s hard to look back, but I think it’s important, and I’m grateful for the gift of growing and healing, and taking the time to honestly reflect on how I felt about myself and my choices during a hard time helps me stay present to how I want to lead and live when the next challenge comes my way, and that’s why I wanted to talk with a few people who left me in awe of the care, forethought, and leadership they displayed throughout the pandemic. While everyone had their own stew of factors that complicated that time, leaders also dealt with not only navigating the crisis themselves, but offering guidance and vision for those they led, and for some it was a perfect storm for business owners who had children and also had a loved one who had a chronic health issue, which led me to invite my guest today for a special Unburdened Leader conversation. She truly is someone who cares about the human experience and holds herself to the same standards she holds others to, and I value how she knows that leading is not about perfection but instead about striving to improve herself while offering others grace to screw it up and make mistakes while moving forward towards their collective commitments.

As a massage therapist and Doctor of Physical Therapy, Kristen Knightly Campbell is the regional director for Catalyst Physical Therapy and Wellness, my go-to recommendation for anyone in the San Diego area, and they have three clinics and three professional support partnerships here in San Diego. Now, from 2012 to 2016, Kristen also worked with the United States Soccer Federation with youth, paralympic- and Olympic-level teams, but she was primarily with the US Women’s National Soccer Team as they prepared for and won the 2015 Women’s World Cup in Canada.


In 2016, Kristen stepped away from traveling with her team to start her family and teach at Point Loma Nazarene University in the Masters of Kinesiology program and dive further into her leadership role at Catalyst. Kristen is very passionate about her work, and she truly appreciates the simple joys she finds in the day-to-day with her young family and their goldendoodle.

Listen for how Kirsten navigated the very needs and fears of her staff and her boss when we all experienced COVID and it entered our lives and places of work. Pay attention to Kristen’s response when she was one of the first in San Diego to get a vaccine after sheltering in place with her immune-compromised baby. And notice the impact of Kristen’s decision to push back on perfectionism and fear of failure and instead bring more vulnerability into how she led herself and her staff in meetings. Now, please welcome Dr. Kristen Knightly Campbell to The Unburdened Leader podcast.

Kristen, welcome!

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Thank you! So happy to be on. Thanks for inviting me.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, and I really appreciate you agreeing to take a conversation we had as friends to the podcast because there’s so much around what we’re gonna talk about today that I believe many people are gonna resonate with. So, I really appreciate you taking time.

I want to start by going back to March 13th, 2020.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yes.

Rebecca Ching: We are almost at the three-year anniversary of this, and this is when residents and businesses in California received the news to shelter in place, and I’d love for you to walk me through your decision process at the physical therapy practice that you are in a leadership position at, when you decided to stop seeing clients in your thriving business six days later.


I’m curious what the trade-offs were that you were weighing as you navigated the different needs and different viewpoints on your team and in community.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, it was a really challenging time. Actually, I was seven weeks into my second maternity leave, so I wasn't physically working in the office, but I was definitely concerned about everything that was happening within our business and in the community. So, it’s kind of funny. Probably about two weeks before things shut down, I was following the news enough to be like something’s happening here, and I think we’re gonna have to react. So, I reached out to the owner, Brian -- I’ll probably talk about him a decent amount today. So, I reached out to Brian and one of our office managers and just said, “Guys, I think we need to start taking this seriously and think proactively on how we’re going to handle this. So, what can we do virtually? What kind of telehealth options could we possibly offer, and what kind of projects could we get some of our staff on?” And we laugh about it now, but I think they took that conversation and probably laughed five minutes later to each other like, “Wow, Kristen’s just overreacting.”

And so, nothing was said. There was another week that went by, and I was kind of just left in the dark wondering what’s happening at the business. And then when it got to be more like I need to step into what my role is away from maternity leave when I’m actually at the business, it was because we had some employees that were reaching out to me. So, I started fielding concerns like, “I don't really know how to bring this up to the owner,” and, “I’m so sorry to interrupt your maternity leave, but I’m starting to not feel comfortable coming into the office anymore.”


That led to a really hard conversation between Brian and myself, but that’s so much of what our business is and why our business really works. We are different people and really love and respect each other for our differences and think that we’re kind of the yin and the yang to what makes our office work and Catalyst be so successful.

So, we had those hard conversations. There was probably anger. There was a time that we had to just pause away from it and step away from the emotions because there were a lot of emotions because there were a lot of emotions back in March of 2020. I think I was coming from a place of the community, overloading our healthcare system, possibly transferring COVID to someone else that was more vulnerable. We didn't know what was happening, what the outcomes of having COVID were at that point. So, it was all kind of scary. I don't think the long-term health of the business was going to thrive if we were forcing our employees to do something that they didn't want to do.

But Brian was coming from a business owner. I mean, he’s got to pay the bills. He’s got to pay our employees. He’s got that responsibility, and I was thinking everything that led me to not actually invest in this business and not be a small business owner. At that time, I was really grateful that I didn't have to have those same decisions. So, not being an owner allows me to be a different liaison between our employees and ownership, so I can represent both, which is a unique position I think, and to have as much support from Brian and trust in my decision making, it’s huge in my role.

So yeah, it was a very challenging decision. Ultimately, I felt very strongly on the fact that we don't want to overload our healthcare system, we don't want to put people at risk, and we need to protect our employees and their families.


So, even though I wasn't working, and it had no direct influence on me at that time, I was still collecting my disability for being on maternity leave. So, I was fine. So, that’s a point of privilege that I definitely had in this situation. But I felt pretty strongly, and I was surveying a lot of our employees. So, we started using anonymous surveys to just kind of have them feel like they could safely tell us how they were feeling, and that’s when we decided eventually no one really wanted to go into the office anymore, and it was time to shut things down and know that we can somehow get through and just have trust and faith in what makes us so successful in the first place and know we can get creative, and we’ll figure this out, and we’ve been through challenges before, and it’s gonna suck, and it was hard, but ultimately I think that was the best decision for our business. So, we shut our doors for six weeks and just went completely virtual for six weeks.

Rebecca Ching: So, let me ask a couple follow-ups. I’m gonna go back to that first conversation you had with Brian and your office manager. And you also noted -- well, let me ask you this first. How long had you and Brian been working together prior to this crisis?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Eleven years.

Rebecca Ching: Okay, so there was a lot of history.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Oh, yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And you mentioned the two of you are very different.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: What has fueled the trust in each other in your differences as you lead your growing physical therapy practice?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I think we were fortunate enough to develop personal relationships before Catalyst.

Rebecca Ching: Mm.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: So, Brian and I worked together as colleagues versus owner and employee for almost four years before this vision of Catalyst even came to.


He was my first friend at my first professional job. He kind of took me under his wing. He’s been like a brother in many ways and like a best girlfriend in other ways. We literally joked -- it’s funny. It’s all before Catalyst now. So much has gotten more serious with Catalyst, but when we were just friends and colleagues, we’d go out to lunch, and it’d be like, “Okay, are you gonna wear the brother hat today or are you gonna wear the girlfriend hat, because if I’m talking about a guy, I need to know where you're at, so I know how you're gonna react to this conversation.” So, he’s the best girlfriend in the world and also a very over-protective brother.

Rebecca Ching: Mm.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: So, I think having that friendship and trust in each other from eleven years of knowing each other before COVID is really the backbone and foundation of why we can have such trust in business and recognize I think we’re both pretty decent at taking a step away from ourselves and our opinions to be able to think through how somebody else is feeling and why they're coming up with different conclusions than ourselves.

I know that Brian respects me, and that’s huge, and I really respect him, and I respect that being a business owner is very different than being a liaison manager (the role that I have). So, it boils down to that respect. We’ve yelled, we’ve fought like brother and sister, but we come back to each other just like family. I mean, I guess probably better than some family. [Laughs] So, we do. We come back to each other because there’s a lot of love that’s at the foundation of it all.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, that’s really standing out to me because often in a leadership role, difference can be something that causes fear and concern.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Mm-hmm.


Rebecca Ching: But when there’s trust and when there’s respect there’s room to have conflict, and I learned this early when I worked in DC at my first job out of college that that kind of conflict -- I mean, DC loves to debate, right? Everything is a debate, but it was this really kind of eye-opening awareness of the debate isn't just pontificating for media headlines. Behind the scenes I saw it, too, and how people would debate and what came out often was better than what each individual had. Not always.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Completely agree.

Rebecca Ching: But this really was a great lesson. And then the other question I have is tell me about -- I’m curious about your employees reaching out. So, you're on maternity leave, and they're talking to you. Was that part of your role and tell me a little bit about the systems in your business and why they were reaching out to you and how you got to the point of developing a confidential survey to really collect the information from your team so you could really understand where people were at.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, that’s definitely my role within the business. We purposefully created a position that can understand the business side of things and represent Brian and the decision-making process that he has, but also know what’s happening on the day to day.

So, in November of 2019, so just a few short months before, I’m nearing the end of my pregnancy. Brian and his family moved to Colorado. So, funny timing with COVID knocking on our door. It happened probably, I guess, eight or nine months earlier than they had anticipated. It definitely wasn't the thought that they were gonna move right before I go on maternity leave. So, my role was already starting to morph into being the person that handles everything on the day to day.


And so, I already had, I think, pretty good relationships with a lot of our staff. They were used to coming to me for most things. It was probably one of my prouder moments to know that they -- I know they didn't want to pick up the phone and call me on my maternity leave. They definitely respected that distance and wanted me to have that space, but I was also really happy that they felt like they could, that they knew I wasn't gonna be angry, that I was gonna handle it, that I was going to try to find the best way to represent their feelings when bringing it up to Brian, when maybe they didn't have that relationship with Brian because he was gone or he hadn’t been as involved on the day-to-day happenings of the business, so he didn't have as much of a relationship with the rest of our staff as I was able to develop in the couple months prior to COVID.

Rebecca Ching: So, what do you think contributed or supported your good relationships with your team? What are things that you did intentionally to build those relationships?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: It’s funny because a lot of my leadership style has evolved a lot over the last nine years of being at Catalyst. It’s kind of scary how I used to manage. The funny part is -- because I know you're a huge fan and this is your leadership style, Brené Brown, but I have a girlfriend who bought me Daring Greatly, gosh, I mean, it probably was part of our first conversations when you and I met -- but bought me that book at least ten years ago or so, and probably when it was first coming out. I can't even remember. And I read the first page and had to put the book down. I was like, “Oh, my gosh. What? This lady knows exactly what is layering and holding me back.”


So, it really took one page to make this huge realization like I am so afraid of failure, and I want to be perfect, and I’m always striving to be the best at everything I do, and failure was a big thing that I defined as not being perfect, and I started to learn more about myself and that failure -- I kind of hate that word because I started to recognize that these are just opportunities. Like, if you can actually label things that you're not doing your best at or are not very good at, those are just opportunities for growth.

So, my leadership style changed a ton when I expected a different outcome from my own actions and also expected different outcomes from our staff. So, not expecting perfection and more expecting identification of what we can work on and looking at that as exciting because that just means we can do better, we can grow as people, as professionals, as caretakers or spouses in relationships, all of that. So it was kind of a funny time to -- I think, even before COVID, we started talking about vulnerability in our meetings and just trying to identify those things and breakthrough. A lot of physical therapists especially are type-A. We are perfectionists. So, breaking through that to just kind of, not only help people professionally, but help them personally in their own relationships was really important to me.

So, it was like the tip of the iceberg. I’d just started kind of chipping away at that with some of our staff in the year leading up to COVID. That November, I was hospitalized while I was pregnant and told that I was unable to be a clinician anymore. So, I could already kind of start my management role and evolve that and just get more in touch with our employees. It led me to have time for that.


So, I think I was fortunate to have those couple of months before I went on maternity leave to develop those relationships a little bit better so that they felt like they could come to me and not be fearful of the reaction of that. I was just like I really wanted to have them feel comfortable with me and tell me anything and we can handle it, but I can't help you if you can't vocalize what you need or your concerns.

So, I think timing was on our side in a weird way in that I was able to start that process in the months leading up to my maternity leave and then, therefore, COVID.

Rebecca Ching: So, thank you for sharing all that, and I’m just floating back to when we first met, and I think we were also geeking out around Bessel van der Kolk’s The Body Keeps the Score.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Rebecca Ching: You know, first light conversation in a meeting, right?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Rebecca Ching: I think we went deep right away.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: You know, you mention that you had been through some crises before, you and Brian, and I just realized in talking about this, one of those crises was in the building you were at when I first met you. Basically, you were getting kicked out within days, and there was a whole shady operation with the landlords who took over the lease.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And you all had days, and Brian had put bank into this beautiful space.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Oh, yeah.

Rebecca Ching: It was like a non-clinical space. It was very Potentia in my old days of having my brick and mortar.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Ching: A very similar style. And was told that you all had to find new -- I mean, it was huge. How did the two of you navigate that crisis together?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: It wasn't together, to be honest. At that time, Brian was scared out of his mind to tell me because we’re months into starting Catalyst, which is a year after he convinced me to quit my first full-time professional gig after grad school to kind of have a blind faith that we’re gonna make Catalyst work out and that I was gonna have a position someday.


So, we laugh about it. Again, it’s one of those we laugh about it now, but I’m like, “How did you keep that from me?” He said he’d go in early every day and tear down the signs that were posted on the doors like no one can know.

So, we did not face that together. It would be funny to have you chat with Brian about how he even survived those months because I think he was terrified. So, by the time --

Rebecca Ching: Understandably!

Kristen Knightly Campbell: [Laughs] Yeah!

Rebecca Ching: In regards to the signs, the eviction signs and the notice of eviction that were on the building from the landlords.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Correct.

Rebecca Ching: He would go in early and get those down so staff and clients wouldn't see them.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Exactly. Yeah. It was wild. Wild.

Rebecca Ching: Wow.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: So, he fought it. He did what he had to do. He maneuvered his way out of it. It was sketchy. It wasn't his fault, obviously. There was a lot going on, but he navigated that one completely on his own to make sure that I didn't lose my mind and freak out about the stability of my position. At that time, I was traveling a lot with US Soccer, so I wasn't full-time at the clinic. I was really coming in and out rarely. Maybe 25% of my time was actually at the clinic at that time. So yeah, he did a great job at keeping that from me, which is probably why I still work for Catalyst and how we survived that because I think the person I was then would have probably freaked out a lot more than the person I am now.

Rebecca Ching: Between that and three years ago, there’s not much y’all can't handle at this point. [Laughs]

Kristen Knightly Campbell: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: So, at that time, he was more protecting you because he didn't feel like where you were at and the trust, he didn't want that to be a distraction from you.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Exactly.

Rebecca Ching: And so, he bore a lot of that on his own as a business owner.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yep.


Rebecca Ching: And so, when you're having the conversations of what your team really wanted was to not be doing in-person services and Brian navigating just the real burdens of running a business and providing for, not just the team, but his family that just moved --

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Right.

Rebecca Ching: -- how did you kind of, as you were looking at those trade-offs, what was negotiated and how did you navigate that to get to the point where you took a pause on direct services for six weeks?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, so Brian was able to change our benefits package. So, people that were taking benefits, it was originally 75% covered. Their premiums were covered at 75%. he switched that up to 100% to make sure that people were okay knowing that that is a very important thing. So, that was huge --

Rebecca Ching: Wow. 

Kristen Knightly Campbell: -- for our employees that needed benefits. We, at that point, needed 32 hours to be considered full time. He and I discussed that if everyone goes down to 30 hours, we continue that being full time to receive the benefits and PTO and all of that, that we could, everybody, take a little bit of a hit for a shorter period of time so that no one has to get furloughed, let go, etcetera. So, it was a way of kind of coming together as a team and having a lot of team communication and discussions of we want everyone to still be employed at the end of this, and the first step to do that is everyone takes a little bit of a hit.

So, all of us went down to a 30-hour-a-week salary, adjusted to about that, so that everyone was able to stay employed. which was an idea of Brian. You should have him on this podcast at some point because it would be fun to dive into it. He went as far as allowing for some of our aids, who were part time, to babysit for our employees that had children because daycares are shut down, schools are shut down. We still needed them to work.


We really needed to go heavy into our admin work while we had loans, you know, the PPP that came into play. So, we really needed to be full steam ahead and working on policy and procedure. So, we needed those people that are strongest at that to be available, and a lot of those people are moms. So, balancing having young children and trying to still work full time and have young children in the house, as too many of us all know, it’s a challenge. So, some of our staff were able to have our aids come out and just babysit slash nanny for the time being so that our aids got paid and our employees were able to work.

So, we made a lot of adjustments to just kind of keep people afloat. I think the crew that it probably hit hardest was our massage therapists.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: COVID was awful for the massage industry. It was, “Yes, you can do it.” “No, you can't do it.” “You need a prescription.” “Nope, you can't do it at all.” So, it was a lot of back and forth and constant loss of wages for that, and massage therapists, in essence, are paid for the work that they do. So, if you don't have clients, it’s hard to be paid. So, I felt worse for the massage therapists. I think that was hard. So, those, we have people that are still with us from all of that time or joined us during that time, and we kind of look back at it as like, “Wow, we survived that,” and the fact that we’ve regrown that side of the business to where it’s at today is a huge testament to those therapists that hung on and stayed within that career because so many people left the massage industry during that time.

Rebecca Ching: Understandably. Thank you for sharing under the hood on that. What stands out (or a couple of things that stand out) is just a real commitment to the people and a respect for the bottom line. They weren't in competition with each other.


It was, “How do we do this together? How do we adjust that?” And you really had open communication. I saw the folks that really moved forward well through this particular crisis (and it sadly won't be our last one) were the ones that were very open and transparent, and that’s a lot of layers that terrifies them. But it really paid off, and the fact that you still have so many people with you still three years later says a lot about that investment in those conversions and making those scary shifts.

So, I’m curious, then, from a business model perspective, how did this particular crisis shift how you thought about delivering services to your clients, and how did those shifts impact your business model and service delivery today?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, so like everyone else we went virtual. Everything was virtual for a little while there. We thought it was a great way -- “Oh, this should stick around forever. This is awesome.” And it did for a while. We still have a handful of virtual clients, but we are most effective in person. So, a lot of what we did during COVID isn't still around today or has just shifted into molding it more to programs that were allowed to do virtual but now we’d rather do it in person if we can.

So, I think it’s adjusted that part of it, but most importantly, that time to work on policy and procedure, which is completely my jam and what makes me excited -- give me a spreadsheet, and I’m all about it. So, having that time to work on the business versus seeing clients and trying to make money for the business really allowed our business model to change, and I think the way it changed the most was how we lead and how we manage our employees. COVID was a blessing in disguise.


We started meeting with our employees all the time. We had to. We had to know where their head was at, how they were doing. You know, you have everybody of people that are super, super concerned. You have people like me that have a family member that you're terrified is going to get sick, and then you have the people that are in their 20s, feel invincible and don't have a concern at all about COVID. So, balancing all of those different ideas and opinions was a challenge, and I couldn't just take my thoughts and assume that’s where everybody else was at.

So, the anonymous surveys were a huge help. We’d send those out pretty regularly to just say, “How are you feeling? What do we need to do differently? How do you feel about patients? Are they following the precautions? Do we need to send out reminders? Where are you at?” And it was amazing to see all of the differences in opinions and trying to find the middle road to make sure, most importantly, that we were a safe place to receive care and that people felt comfortable coming to us. That was my biggest thing for a really long time was being honest. If there was COVID in the clinic, we had to tell people or if somebody was exposed, we had to tell people. So, even before all those laws came down like you have to notify employees, etcetera, etcetera, we were very open about that just because we wanted everybody to make their own decisions on how they felt about exposures or if somebody was COVID positive versus saying, “Oh, you're gonna be fine.” I’m not the person to judge on how somebody else is going to react to COVID. So, it just was very eye opening that don't judge. Some people aren't telling you the full story, so don't judge and assume that what’s happening in your world is what’s happening with everybody else.

Rebecca Ching: Wow.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I think our leadership really changed to just kind of look at the person very differently, and that wasn’t just our clients, but it was so much of our staff.


So, just kind of really try to let them tell their truth so they felt comfortable, not like, “Oh, I’m talking to my employer. I have to always lead with this best foot forward, so they think I’m really invested, and I’m gonna be here forever.” I loved hearing somebody’s goal of owning their own little practice and letting me know months before so we could help get them to that goal or I feel like it helps our business a lot to be able to have those relationships, get the truth, and help people get to their goals versus thinking, “Oh, Catalyst is the only place you’ll ever want to be.” I mean, you're living under a rock if you think this generation wants to stay in one job for the rest of their life, you know? So, why not be honest about it, and why not think through, “Where are we trying to get,” and, “We’re a steppingstone to your next goal,” or, “Maybe you want to stay with us forever, and that’s awesome. Let’s figure out how to do it.” But that’s been a lot of the change that kind of came from COVID. Not necessarily how we deliver services, but just how we operate as a team and as a staff.

Rebecca Ching: There’s so much in there, so much in there. It’s amazing what you can do when you really know where people are at so you can impact the decisions you make, but for people to really be honest about where they're at, they have to feel that it’s safe and they can trust that there’s not gonna be backlash.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: And it sounds like just something that you and Brian really cultivated in there and even in your presence in that role. In some of the organizations and the companies and even academic institutions that have been around a while, there’s just this sense of -- I mean, they don't say it overtly, but sometimes they do, like, “This is how it’s always been done.”

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: “We’ve got to fight to keep things this way.”

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And they're struggling, and the people there are really hurting. And so, there’s such a sense of vibrancy and life and health, and it really does impact because you're in the business of helping people heal.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And you have such a holistic pros -- you're not straight medical model, just how you create your space. So, the fact that you have so many different disciplines under one roof, which I know is what we kind of came together because we had similar approaches, and treating the whole person, and this is really leading the whole person too.


It really is translating there, so it’s incredible.

[Inspirational Music]

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[Inspirational Music]


Let’s fast forward a bit to January 2021, and I saw this Facebook post that you wrote that really moved me, and I made a little file of why I wanted to have you on the show today. A big part of it is you were a part of the first wave of individuals to receive your COVID vaccination. What was going through your mind as you drove up to the vaccination site and you were seeing all the tents and people lined up to receive their shots?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, it’s funny. Even you mentioning this question gives me the chills and makes me teary-eyed. It’s such a visceral response. I think I’ve compartmentalized a lot of what’s happened in the last few years, but that moment was cathartic for me. It was a huge release. I really didn't expect it, but it was ultimately kind of this turning point for me. I had just been in overdrive for the last year.

Our youngest, who was just about to turn a year -- she’s turning three in a couple of days. So, she was just about to turn a year. She had been diagnosed through all of that with something called hypogammaglobulinemia, which is a mouthful for immunocompromised. So, her body doesn't make antibodies very well, not just COVID, but in general. So, secondary infections, pneumonia, things like that were the big fear of her getting sick. So, we lived a very strange life. We were the people that, of course, masked everywhere but didn't even go anywhere. I worked from home. My husband worked from home. Our doctors told us either go on disability or work from home if you can. Brian was incredibly supportive. It wasn't even a conversation. It was we got this diagnosis. I call him as soon as we get home. I’m in tears. It’s a very overwhelming diagnosis for a baby, especially when you're in the middle of a pandemic (not great timing).


There were no questions asked. It was we do what we have to do. Obviously, he wanted me in the clinic, and I knew that, but he wasn't gonna say, “You have to risk your daughter’s life,” you know? So, it was, “Okay, we figure it out. That’s fine.”

So, it was such a crazy year. Emotionally, for me, there was so much stress of the responsibility of figuring out and getting to the diagnosis for our daughter that was, I mean, middle of the night, all night long, all day long research about what was going on. She was obviously an infant, so there was no communication to tell us what was wrong, and she was sick. She was in a lot of pain, so it was very hard as a mom, especially in a postpartum period, to see that and to go through that. So, there was the personal responsibility and emotional toll that that had on me, and then the huge responsibility of leading out business through the COVID response.

So, Brian ended up -- he just gave me the reins. “Kristen, you do what you need to do, and I trust it. We just have to do what you think is best.” So, that was great. I felt good about that. I felt, on top of what was going on in the community in the medical field, but it was a lot of pressure, and, again, you have so many different opinions on how to handle it, and I had to say, “This is what we’re gonna do, and I’ll talk it through, but this is what we’re gonna do,” and hold boundaries where I needed to and not give into the pressure of society to change things.

And then everything was political at that point. COVID became political. It was very divisive. Friends and family that you never would have thought would have felt the way that they did, I was like, “Oh, my gosh,” and it was hard. I took things personally because here I am having my baby that you going out and having parties or you not worrying about these things at all felt like a direct stab, and I had to be able to separate that and recognize that even though it felt like they were taking a stab at my daughter and I, they weren't.


They just didn't have that lens to look through. So, it wasn't to the fault of their own. It was they didn't have the ability to see what other people were going through, and that was really hard because I took a lot of that personally. But I didn't vocalize it other than to, probably, my poor husband that felt the same way because he was going through a lot of those challenges right alongside us.

So, it just felt like finally this sense of relief of, “Wow, this was hard.” Everyone worked so hard: the scientists, the doctors, the nurses, our healthcare field. Not just our healthcare field, but so many people worked so hard to make that day happen when I was able to receive my vaccine. So, it felt like even though there’s all this crap from the last year and differing of opinions and parts of times when I felt hopeless in society and all of that, this was a moment of hope that just kind of brought so many people, a huge collective, that was there for the same mission and wanted to get through this. So yeah, it was super emotional. I didn't expect it to be at all, but I just lost it, and I still get emotional thinking about that moment.

So, it just allowed me, I think, to be like, “Oh, my gosh. How have I functioned for the last year?” And just kind of reflect, and it just hit me like a ton of bricks, really, and that was my first post (I’ve had two in the last three years) that really touched on COVID at all, and it was just my opportunity to just be like, “Thank you,” to the people that worked so hard at this, and also, “Somebody you love and care for --,” and  maybe a lot of my friends and family didn't even know our situation at that point or people that followed me on social media didn't know what we were going through, and I was kind of just hoping that there were enough people out there that do care about my family and myself to be like, “Oh, I never thought of it that way. Hmm. There are other people,” and maybe give them an opportunity to look through a different lens on what was actually happening.


So, I was just hoping that some people would be touched and maybe it would influence some of their decisions or at least understand where people like us were coming from during that time.

Rebecca Ching: Mm.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: And I think it did. I got a lot of outreach afterwards where people were like, “I had no idea. Thank you for sharing,” etcetera. But that was my moment. I just felt like I needed to use my voice a little bit, and I don't really like to get political, or I just shared the great points of our family life, etcetera, on social media. I don't really voice those kinds of opinions on there, but it felt like such a huge, monumental moment that needed to be expressed, I guess.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, I mean, there is just a tragedy in how certain things about public health became political. And what you wrote, what you're referencing, you said in that post, “Even though I don't agree that only the vulnerable are at risk, your ‘only’ is still our everything,” and I remember losing it. I even feel it right now because I had no idea. I mean, I just, you know, I care about you.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: It’s not like we were BFFs, but I think a lot of you.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: And the solidarity of being a parent and a professional, I just went [Sigh], and then to think the height of the anger and how just insidious and toxic things have been around that moment and what that meant for your family and the life of your daughter.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, that’s Addy. I mean, you know as a parent, there’s nothing like that infant that is just -- talk about vulnerability -- the most vulnerable thing in the world, right?


It’s complete trust in parents to make sure that they're making me safe and making the right decisions for me. So, being a part of a group of medically-fragile children, there are a lot of those kinds of conversations that are happening in the support groups and chatting about, “Gosh, why can't anyone else see what we see or feel what we feel?”

Yeah, so it was a very hard time because it was like just take a step back. I didn't think that there were only high-risk people. I didn't agree with that. I knew people that were completely healthy and had a horrible time with COVID. I was just talking to a professional athlete the other day about her response to COVID, and it took her six months to get through that. So, I didn't agree with this idea of, “Well, if you're high risk, just stay home.” I mean, I hated how people said that all the time, and it was, again, a slap in the face because it’s like, “Well, do you know what that means?” That’s what a lot of that post was was, “My daughter hasn't met her family. My daughter hasn't -- we can't go to the doctor’s without being incredibly nervous to even go to these critical doctor’s appointments that were helping guide her plan of care. Never been to a grocery store.” There were so many things that when you say, “Just stay home,” you don't realize the impact on somebody’s life.

That postpartum period -- you know, people think of their postpartum period as, like, “I’m gonna go to coffee shops. I’m gonna go for stroller walks. I’m gonna visit with friends, have coffee with family,” etcetera, and that was all taken away from new parents in that period. So, even worse for those that have sicker children or immunocompromised children or maybe it’s not an immunocompromised child, but it’s a grandparent or somebody that’s living with you that you're concerned with. There are so many different dynamics that kind of come into play.

So, I just wanted people to step outside of what they were going through and kind of put yourself in somebody else’s shoes and recognize that the decisions that they're making could be about somebody that they love more than it’s their heart outside of their body.


Rebecca Ching: And it’s steeped in ableism, too, to just stay home and not understanding -- it’s just so diminishing. But what also strikes me, circling back to the beginning of the interview when you were talking about how you and Brian (who’s the owner of Catalyst Physical Therapy), how different you are but you both have a lot of empathy and compassion towards the other and have the curiosity and capacity to want to know what the other is going through or how the other has that perspective. You offered that to each other. You offered that to your team. And then all of a sudden we had a culture that wasn't offering what is such a core value that you offer.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: You weren't getting that back. You weren't getting that empathy. You weren't getting that compassion from a good chunk of our culture and in such a vulnerable time. And so, that just stands out to me, too.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, I’ve never actually thought of it that way, but I think you probably hit the nail on the head as to why my reactions were the way they were because I am an empath. [Laughs] I truly try to feel for other people and put myself in their shoes, and yeah, it felt really hard that the world didn't know how to do that because it feels like such a core value that everyone should have. Yeah, it was a slap in the face, for sure.

Rebecca Ching: A lot would be different in our world if we had a little bit more capacity for both empathy and compassion. I don't know what we’d -- I’d think that’s a utopia. But we’re working towards it. We’re still creating that in the spaces that we --

Kristen Knightly Campbell: We try.

Rebecca Ching: -- have agency over. So, that’s what we’re aiming for.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: So, as you reflect back on that time, what did you learn about yourself and leading?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I learned that I’m strong, I actually have pride and strength in myself, and that I want to instill that in others.


And so, it’s nice to look through what I have been through in my life and know that I can face anything going forward, our business can face anything, we can get through it. But I think it kind of circles back to just that change in my leadership style. Funny enough, I had reached out to -- I don't know if you remember her, but Laurel was one of our PTs back in the day when we first met at Catalyst, and I was originally her manager, and, I mean, I was an awful manager… awful. She’s this intelligent, brilliant physical therapist, person, great person. And I reached out to her at some point in the last few years and just apologized. We’re still friends, and we’ve had a good friendship ever since, professionally and personal, but I reached out to her, and I just said, “I am so sorry for my management and leadership style back in the day, and I’m so grateful that I can reflect on this, but I’m sorry how that must have felt as an employee and as a person and as my friend. I’m working on it. I’m trying to improve and be a better person for all of our employees now.”

So yeah, I think I’ve just changed a lot. I’ve also let go of the stress of that first year. It was like almost probably that moment when I got my vaccine, and all of those emotions came flooding through. I also was like, “Okay, I don't have to do that anymore.” I don't have to live in overdrive anymore. I have to figure out a way to be mentally and physically healthy. I have to lead a better example because I don't want everyone to live in overdrive. That’s not the way you live. So, learning that I am enough, that I can be proud of myself, but I can also create healthy boundaries has been a huge change and thinking that if I lead that way and try to get our staff to do the same -- leading by example is such a true thing.


You see it in parenthood all the time. It’s kind of wild. It’s the trippiest part about parenthood, and the scariest and most prideful part is seeing your children or hearing them say a phrase that you've probably said time and time again and you never heard it, and then you hear them repeating it in the room when they're playing with their little sister or something. You know, you see that and you're like, “Oh, my gosh.” My husband and I’ll look at each other like, “Oh, gosh, that’s why we work so hard to communicate the way we do and not raise our voice and always tell each other we love each other,” and, you know, all the things that you try as a parent to instill in your children, it’s the same.

I mean, there’s no difference in my relationship and how I try to be with my husband and my children as I am trying to be with the people in our clinic (you know, our coworkers and our employees). It’s all relationship building, and it doesn't have to be a power struggle. It’s let’s be human with each other. Let’s try to be on the same team and come from a good palace and recognize most likely the person you're dealing with is also coming from a good place or at least they think they are, and if they aren't, then you need to probably get them off your team.

So, that same level of respect that I have with Brian, I try to have that with the rest of our team and lead with that. There are times when I get caught up in the business, times when I get caught up in my own stress. Of course, I’m nowhere near perfect on these things, but I’m letting myself not be perfect, letting others not be perfect, and looking at those as opportunities to do better. But also my day has to end at 5:00 because I want to be present for my children, that to-do list, it’s always there. The 25-year-old in me was trying to get through that to-do list and was working around the clock, didn't have much of a life other than work, but now I’m like, “No, there’s more to life.” So, somehow, I’m trying to figure out how to do it all and also recognize that I can't do it all, which seems so funny.


When I was preparing for this interview, I’m trying to think through these things, and at one page I’m writing, “I can do it all,” and the next page I’m saying, “It’s okay to not do it all.”

Rebecca Ching: We weren't taught to take care of ourselves; we were taught to do it all, and there’s always a cost in doing it all. There’s always a cost, and we weren't taught to look at the cost, and we weren't taught that the work that we do in our families is something that we also should count in our meaningful work for those of us working outside of the home, right?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And just that that kind of work, in general -- the work at home is looked at differently.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yep. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: You know? And by society, even though it’s the most noble. And even for folks who don't have kids but, still, just in general, there are so many expectations around that and that grind. I think a lot of folks are waking up and realizing we’ve been sold a bill of goods about what it means to be enough, what it means to be worthy, what it means to be productive and successful.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And so, I hear that you're in that big rumble, and I’m super stroked, and I can't imagine better people, you and Brian, to be leading a team, especially for those who are helping people heal from their injuries. I mean, I send people to you all the time for overuse injury. I mean, you have such a thorough -- even how you assess people is different than the old-school medical model, but people who work with you all have sustained change.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And we can't keep helping people heal if we’re not taking caring of that, and I think anyone in a helping or service-related business after the last few years is thinking, “Okay, what do I need,” and it’s scary because it feels like, “Is this okay to actually take a break?” 

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: “Is this okay to not check off the list every day?” But I think this is exactly what we need to rethink. So, I really appreciate the rumble you're in.

Before we wrap our interview, I’ve got some quick-fire questions for you. Are you ready?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I’m ready!

Rebecca Ching: Okay, what are you reading right now?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Where The Crawdads Sing.

Rebecca Ching: Ooh.


Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, I don't know. I’m late to the party, but I’ve been reading that, and then Tarana Burke’s book, Unbound, I’ve been trying to read for a couple of years.

Rebecca Ching: Ooh.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: But that’s a heavy book, so I go through spurts.

Rebecca Ching: An important one. I really appreciate her leadership.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: What song are you listening to on repeat?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Well, I have two toddlers, so “I’m Still Standing,” Sing 1. But if I was to pick, it would be Drake White. I’m obsessed with “Making Me Look Good Again.” I’ve been listening to that song for years. If you haven't heard it, you’ve got to check it out.

Rebecca Ching: On it. What’s the best TV show or movie you’ve seen recently?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Have you seen Instant Family with Mark Wahlberg?

Rebecca Ching: No.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Check it out.

Rebecca Ching: Should I?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Tear-jerker. 

Rebecca Ching: Okay.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Great.

Rebecca Ching: Okay!

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Funny and tear-jerker. Love those kinds of movies.

Rebecca Ching: Yes, actually, I do, too. What is your favorite eighties bit of pop culture (movie, TV, fashion)?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Oh, gosh. Probably Dirty Dancing. It’s such a classic.

Rebecca Ching: Okay! Yeah, don't put baby in a corner, please.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Just don't.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, it’s just a classic. I don't know, Top Gun is pretty good, too, though, so…

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs]

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Very different.

Rebecca Ching: Have you been to the Top Gun house up in Oceanside?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: No, I haven't.

Rebecca Ching: They sell little hand pies now so the kids will love it, too, while you check out all the pop culture. What is your mantra right now?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I can only do so much.

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs]

Kristen Knightly Campbell: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: True story. What is an unpopular opinion that you hold?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Oh, gosh. I think you probably have to ask my husband or our employees for the answer on that, but if I had to say, I disagree with Breaking Bad being one of the best TV shows in the world. I’m not into it. Couldn't get me. Nope. I know, unpopular opinion! 

Rebecca Ching: Not even the ending?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I didn't even watch it. I didn't get there. 

Rebecca Ching: [Gasp]

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I couldn't!

Rebecca Ching: It was rough. There were some rough -- I had to do a lot of fast-forwarding of some of the heavy drug use, but --


Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, it’s just too much.

Rebecca Ching: -- if you decide to revisit it -- it was a lot. Okay, well, I will not try and convince you otherwise.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: That’s why it’s an unpopular opinion, right? [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs] Very true. Who or what inspires you to be a better leader and human?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: I mean, our team is the leadership thing. It’s all for them. Catalyst is my baby, and there’s so much to it, the influence I can have on people. It’s no longer about our clients anymore. I love my clients, if any of our clients are listening. Of course, it was always about them for so long, but now in my new role, it’s just completely about our team. It’s fun to have an influence on who they become in the next year or two or however long they're on this journey with us. So, it’s super corny, but our team is what inspires me to be better. I’m still working through. I can say and talk great talk about vulnerability and fear of failure. I still have a strong fear of failing our team, so I’m trying to work through that, but that’s the motivation. 

And then being a good human and leader for my kids. It comes back to that all the time, like we talked about. They emulate what you do. they become little mini yous, at the same time of having these crazy personalities that are so different from each other. So, I’m just trying to do it right for them and also have being a good leader and being a good human go hand in hand as much as possible versus being a good businesswoman and separating out the humanity of it. So, I’m sorting through that, but that’s all part of the motivation to be better at it.

Rebecca Ching: You know, I appreciate that, and leading your team well does support your clients too.

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Because if the team is well, your clients are gonna get amazing care. I’m just so grateful for all that you and the rest of your team do in our community, and I hope more folks are exposed to the quality of your care and just who you all are and how you show up.


Kristen Knightly Campbell: Well, thank you.

Rebecca Ching: So, really, thank you for this time. 

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Thank you.

Rebecca Ching: How can folks, if they wanted to connect with Catalyst, where could they connect and learn more about the work that you all are doing?

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, so, our website www.catalystptandwellness.com is a great place to start. We are on social media channels: Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram. Coming in and just checking out our facility. Our telephone number is (619) 501-2195. I always say just give us a call if you want to learn more. You can ask for Annie. She’ll love that. Ask for Annie. Annie is our mom in the group. She knows everything. But if you want to connect with me directly, all of my information is on our website.

We’re actually doing a new thing that’s fun. We just launched it today. We’re doing kind of a win-back from our old clients. So, Brian and I are offering free 30-minute sessions at the end of February (February 27th and 28th) to anyone that has ever come into Catalyst before but they're not a current client. So, we’re hoping to see a lot of old faces. So, we’re trying to get that word out. It’ll be a lot of fun to just kind of reconnect with people that we treated for years or maybe we just treated once and want to come in for a refresher. It’s 30 minutes to hang with us, 30 minutes to get some body work, 30 minutes to get an evaluation, whatever you want, but it’s 30-minute sessions with both Brian and myself.

Rebecca Ching: That’s exciting!

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Yeah, that’ll be fun.

Rebecca Ching: That is really exciting. Wonderful. And are you still doing virtual consultations for folks that are around the country and the globe that want a second opinion? Do you still have some of those options for folks? 

Kristen Knightly Campbell: We do. We’re limited just to wellness sessions, but of course consultations, we can always do those virtually. As far as healthcare providing physical therapy virtually, we have to do that only for in-state. So, we are a little bit more limited than we were, but there’s always an opportunity to connect with us virtually for a consultation and advice. 


Rebecca Ching: Wonderful. I’m so glad that people have that option. Thank you again for your time, Kristen, in sharing so much of your heart, and yeah, just this was an honor. Really appreciate it. 

Kristen Knightly Campbell: Thank you. I really appreciate you, too. Thanks for making me do this, pushing me past my comfort level. So, this was great! I had a lot of fun.

[Inspirational Music]

Rebecca Ching: Before you go, I want to talk about the things that support you respecting yourself and your actions during hard times. And Kristen shared with us some great learnings about her own journey to battle perfectionism and fear of failure, which led to her bringing in more vulnerability, especially when the stakes are high, which is counter intuitive. And she also taught us the value of strong relationships, listening well, and responding quickly to the needs of others as core practices that supported her and her organization’s success during her own personal and professional perfect storm. 

So, I’m wondering for you, when you look back on the hard times in your life, do you respect your choices? And what can you do today to put in the reps that support courage and clarity, even when things are really, really hard? And are you surrounding yourself with people in work and in life that bring out the best of you and have your back when times are good and when they're also challenging? If we desire to move through hard times and hard decisions aligned with our values and honoring the humanity of ourselves and others, then we need to put in those reps of living our values and practicing vulnerability day in and day out just like Kristen modeled for us. And this is so key, so our actions become habits and reflexes when stress and uncertainty arise. And this is the work of an Unburdened Leader.


Thank you so much for joining this special episode of The Unburdened Leader. If you got something out of this episode, I’d be honored if you left a review and a rating and make sure that you're subscribed and share this episode with anyone you think may benefit from it. You can find this episode, our show notes, along with free Unburdened Leader resources and ways to work with me at www.rebeccaching.com.

[Inspirational Music]


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