EP 55: Embodied Leadership: Pushing Back and Speaking Truth with Lisa Gungor

Uncategorized Jun 17, 2022

When being right is more important to you than being in relationship, difference and questioning become something to fear.

And fear shuts down connection and curiosity.

Unattended grief and rage are fertile ground for fear to have a party with our capacity to stay curious and welcome the discomfort of doubt and questions.

And trust cannot exist without the ability to share and question the norms and beliefs of a community.

When we lead or are led this way, questions become a threat to belonging and status quo.

And when you are in the public eye, there seems to be even less room for doubt and more momentum for digging heels into being right, at the sacrifice of relationships and dignity.

Today’s Unburdened Leader guest and her husband lost friends, community, and much of their livelihood when they started to question some of the foundational tenets of their beliefs, which were deeply intertwined into their community.

Instead of their doubt and curiosity being welcomed and honored, their questioning came at a great cost that reflected that many in their community were more invested in being right over their relationships.

Lisa Gungor has been scribbling down songs since she was seven years old. A maker at heart, Lisa studied art in college, and in 2005 she began recording and traveling with the band that eventually turned into the two-time Grammy-nominated musical collective known as Gungor. She has new solo music under the name Isa Ma, and is co-founder of Sacred Feminine.

Listen to the full episode to hear:

How Lisa’s beliefs and identity got publicly subsumed, first with her band then with her husband’s questioning
What Lisa learned from the solidarity of the friends and community members who stuck by them
How Lisa found her songwriting voice while struggling with her faith and infertility
What embodied leadership means to Lisa

Learn more about Lisa Gungor:

Learn more about Rebecca:

Resources:

Scroll down for the full episode transcript:

Lisa Gungor: It was hard to process, and it was hard to try to, like -- if someone doesn’t want to listen to you and doesn’t want to have a conversation with you, it's hard to be in the room with that.

[Inspirational Intro Music]

Rebecca Ching: When being right is more important that being in relationship, difference and questioning becomes something to fear, and fear shuts down connection and curiosity, and, shoot, these days, I suspect we've all been there where we hunker down and comfort and protect in our self-righteousness, 'cause unattended grief and rage, they're fertile ground for fear to have a party with our capacity to stay curious and welcome discomfort of doubt and questions.

I'm Rebecca Ching, and you're listening to The Unburdened Leader, the show that goes deep with leaders whose burdens have inspired their life's work. Our goal is to learn how they’ve addressed these burdens, how they rise from them and become better and more impactful leaders of themselves and others.

Without permission for non-agenda curiosity, trust diminishes, and trust can't exist without the ability to share and question the norms and beliefs of a community. Now, when we're led, or we lead this way, questions become a threat to belonging and status quo. I know, for me, this was so different from my time in DC which was such a formative season of my life. During this time we would debate and question as a favored pastime, and I was fortunate to have friends and colleagues who represented varied views and beliefs on everything from relationships and dating, politics, systems, theology, and so much more. Everything was fair game, and we would sit on the rooftop of our Capitol Hill row houses or gather around tables at a local restaurant and dive in.

0:02:03

Though things were rarely light and breezy, everything was intense and intentional, and I loved it. Sure, there were some conversations that were more vulnerable than others depending on the topic and who was involved in the conversation, and yes, there was absolutely some hubris involved. No one wanted to lose their argument, but we also deeply valued a constant examination of our beliefs which I learned was always a win-win.

Now, this was not always a graceful process, but it was a powerful and foundational practice I developed. I either walked away from these conversations feeling more clear and confident on a particular belief or position or I was left with the awareness that I need to reconsider my position stat, sending me down a rabbit hole to more learning, research, and, yes, questioning. With everything going on these days, it's easy to dismiss that practice and, again, fall back into the comfort of self-righteousness, and today's Unburdened Leader guest did not have the same experience I had when I was in DC when she and her husband started to question some foundational tenets of their beliefs which were deeply intertwined into their community and livelihood.

Now, my first encounter with Lisa Gungor was through her book, The Most Beautiful Thing, which a friend gave me a few years ago when I was in a deep rumble raising my kids in a world that worships what I feel is a toxic standard of, quote, "normal," and has a lot of labels for kids who don’t fit that norm. Lisa's journey of raising a daughter with down syndrome gave me language and a sense of validation in what I was navigating raising a daughter on the autism spectrum.

0:04:00

Through her book, I also learned she's an incredible musician and artist and a part of a band with her husband called Gungor. In addition to being an author and co-founder of the band Gungor, Lisa's also the co-founder of Sacred Feminine and creator of music for Isa Ma.

Now, one of the things that fascinated me so much about Lisa is her experience when she and her husband started questioning beliefs of their faith, which many in their community hold dear. Instead of their doubt and curiosity being welcomed and honored, they lost friends, community, and much of their livelihood almost overnight. Their questioning and doubt came at a great cost and reflected that many in their community were more invested in being right over a relationship with them. Now, gosh, when you're in the public eye there seems to be less room for doubt and more momentum of just digging in heels to being right at the sacrifice of relationships and dignity.

Now, listen for what Lisa learned about herself and discovered about her identity when things started to fall apart. Notice how everyone responded to her husband's questioning and what they assumed about Lisa's beliefs as a result. Pay attention to how Lisa moved through (and even continues to move through) this time of deconstruction and reclaiming. Now, please welcome Lisa Gungor to The Unburdened Leader podcast.

Lisa, welcome!

Lisa Gungor: Hello! Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

Rebecca Ching: We have a lot to cover today. I'm really looking forward to digging into some of the questions, and I know those listening will really appreciate this conversation. I suspect you may want to have a notepad nearby 'cause we're gonna dig in.

I want to start off talking about deconstruction, you know?

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs]

0:06:03

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs] And it's a big word and one that's referenced a lot these days, especially in terms of people unpacking their spiritual and faith beliefs, but I also see people deconstructing what they believed about what work is supposed to look like, family is supposed to look like, their identity.

Lisa Gungor: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: And you’ve been on the forefront of this movement, inspiring so many to question what they were brought up to believe. You did this all very publicly while you're changing how you lead yourself, how you connect with your faith, your music, and the most important relationships in your life, all while others were watching real time. [Laughs]

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: It's no big deal. Tell me about a time when you realized that the life that you were living didn’t fit you anymore.

Lisa Gungor: Ah, I think there were so many of those moments, but I think the biggest one was probably when there was an interview that came up from years ago where Michael was talking about Noah and questioning if that was a real story or if it was metaphor -- just, like, what are the details of all of that, and how can we actually know if Noah was a real person or not was the tip of the iceberg. [Laughs] So it was kind of wild to us when that came out. I remember getting a text from my brother. We were driving up to this little lake house that Michael's parents have. We went to it every summer, but, in particular, this time that we were going Lucy had recently had surgery, and so, we were just going to kind of decompress and unwind and spend time with our family, and then everything blew up. It went out in some magazines and just all over the internet. It became clickbait. I went down to the dock 'cause our phones were just exploding.

0:08:02

Everyone's going, "What's going on with you guys?" Before we knew what cancel culture was, that's kind of what was happening to us, you know? So I went down to the dock and just sat there, realizing, oh, people didn’t know. We'd thought that we'd been pretty honest and forthright about what we believed. We wrote about it in our songs, but I think art is just like that, you know? You can interpret it as you will, and so, it didn’t really catch on until that day, just all the things that we were questioning, and because of the fire and the anger behind it, I just felt like oh, this is it. I mean, we were, in real time, getting kicked out of the circles we'd been in, and yeah, there were some powerful people in those circles that were calling every show that we had, telling people to not work with us again. I wanted to be like, "Oh, no, no, no, but wait, let me explain," or, "Maybe that's not what I think," you know? Even just Michael and I being able to differentiate our opinions from the others, couples are so intertwined, and so, I felt this thing of we both felt like oh, we need to defend ourselves, and say this is what we're really thinking, but then, we're like this is where we're at, and this is what we're thinking and more.

It was just one of those moments like well, anything that can be taken and anything that can die is not -- we don’t need it. It's not for us anyways, and that was really hard to trust and open up our hands to let go because all of our finances were tied up in our faith, our whole world was built on that, but I'm really glad for that. I'm really, really glad for that shift. It kind of, like, thrusted us forward. Anything that we were trying to hold onto just kind of broke through.

0:10:07

Rebecca Ching: You brought up a couple things there, too. Whether you're in a partnership, a marriage, a business relationship, often, we can be seen just all as one monolith. [Laughs]

Lisa Gungor: Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: You know? I'd love for you to talk a little bit more for you 'cause you mentioned that a little bit about well, I've got my own, you know, take on this, and there wasn't -- it was just -- and I want to get more into how dangerous questioning is for some of the spaces you and I hang in and have hung out in too.

First, just even talking about you being put into this monolith where almost it's like I got this sense as I was prepping for our conversation that it was just a group. You were grouped in, and you'd been losing a little bit of yourself, so can you talk a little bit more as your questioning kind of caught fire from a lot of fear-based folks in power, how was that for you to get swept up in this in your own relationship with your voice and your identity?

Lisa Gungor: Yeah, I think it was hard 'cause there were a lot of things that I didn’t agree with that Michael was thinking, but it wasn’t like I was against it. I was like, "Oh, that's interesting that you're going there." We'd always really questioned together which I am really grateful for, but there were definitely times where I would question something that he wasn’t really ready for, and then he would question something I wasn’t ready for. I think when he came to a place where he identified as an Atheist, I did not, and so, in every interview or interaction that we would have with people that had heard about our story, yeah, I got grouped in with his identity.

0:12:01

I felt really angry. I felt really angry about it for a while. It didn’t seem like there was room for questions towards my experience. It was all towards Michael's, which I understand because that was the more deviant [Laughs] -- he was the more deviant in the scenario -- or deviant ideas, more fiery ideas. So I understand that, that that’s the thing that gets the attention, but I think we'd already experienced a lot of (through our music) people saying, "Oh, Michael, great job writing these songs. We love your music. We love your band."

Rebecca Ching: Oh.

Lisa Gungor: And if we would both be standing there talking to someone, they wouldn’t really look me in the eye, and I experienced this for so long. It was just one of those things that I was getting really frustrated about because I didn’t experience that when I went to art school, when I was doing projects. There was this interaction and this energy between the whole group, but in the band, it was all directed towards one person, and I kept trying to tell myself oh, I must have some ego hang-up with this or -- you know, the things you try to tell yourself aren’t happening. This blow-up with us in public, I felt like made that even more prominent and just more put me on board with like, "Welp, she's the wife," or, "She must be thinking everything that he's thinking," you know? I think I struggled with that for a while, and then was just really able to let that go. I'm still learning about how to feel the emotion we're feeling and not stuff it down -- fully feel, let it process, and then release it.

I think it was so weird to me because I grew up in a church that a husband and wife led together, and she was a very strong woman, and people -- it was equal. It felt like equal leadership, and it wasn’t until we started traveling more that it really felt like my opinion or my presence there was simply because I was someone's wife but, thank god, I don’t feel that anymore.

0:14:10

That was a long time ago, and we've definitely moved though that, but that was hard to process and it was hard to try to -- like, if someone doesn’t want to listen to you and doesn’t want to have a conversation with you, it's hard to be in the room with that.

Rebecca Ching: There's so much I want to follow-up on that, but what stands out to me is this merging of who you are, whether it's in your marriage or in your band, was kind of all this monolith that was happening way before more people started paying attention, as you and your husband were questioning. It's interesting that voice is like, "Oh, don’t want to take up more space, don't be too arrogant, don't be greedy."

Lisa Gungor: Right.

Rebecca Ching: You know, and these things that those who identify as women or who have been cultured as women, we say, "Oh, don’t be that woman," you know?

Lisa Gungor: Right, oh, I know! It feels awful. Yeah, you're like don’t. Just ignore what's happening.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, shrink, and so, all of a sudden you've got this spotlight, the laser beam -- and, you know, cancel culture's an interesting phrase now 'cause I have a complicated relationship with it 'cause I feel like there's a power in changing, you know, where we give our attention and our money.

Lisa Gungor: Right.

Rebecca Ching: I think there's a very -- then, I'm seeing it even weaponized and weaponized in politics, weaponized in the faith community, and the Christian cancel culture is like a subculture of that that's particularly nasty and insidious and rhetorically flawed on so many levels, but it kind of makes my mind explode, and we see red at times. And so, I'm wondering -- and I really want you to talk about this from your perspective, too -- how do people respond to your journey of, not just changing your mind, but just questioning.

0:16:08

You touched on there was initial backlash of strangers, and then some people actually wanted to take the time to pick up a phone and cancel your livelihood because you weren't going along to get along, but for you, particularly, what was your experience for better and for worse for folks who showed up for you to hold space for the doubt and questioning you were going through.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah, thanks for that question. It definitely was not one-sided. Yes, we lost a lot of close friends, and we damaged a lot of family relationships, but they were absolutely the people who were like, "Yeah, me too, I get it. I've questioned that," and it was almost like when that secret is out, you know, and then there's just so many others that resonate, you're like, "Oh, it's not the scary monster I thought it was."

Yeah, our whole community -- we had started a church in Denver, Colorado, and I remember when we talked about it one night, and we thought everyone was gonna leave, and they were just like, "Hey, thank you for being so honest. I think about that stuff all the time and didn’t know anyone else did." I mean, it's so weird now being on this side of it, it sounds silly, right, how taboo it was to talk about. I was scared out of my fuckin' mind to tell any of my close friends what I was thinking. I was like, "This is gonna be it. I can talk to them about all this other stuff, but not this," about questioning if the guy in the sky (like, not tell them that I don’t think that's real), but there were so many people that really surrounded us and were amazing and wonderful, and then yeah, some friendships fell apart that I never thought would, and it was just all the stories that I'd heard of people switching faiths, of going from Islam to Christianity and being disowned by their family.

0:18:06

That sounded so dramatic to me as a child, and it kept hitting me like, well, that's what's happening, and people are just saying -- it was mostly online --

Rebecca Ching: Of course.

Lisa Gungor: -- the meanest things. I mean, just what felt like the most evil, mean things. It was shocking. It was really shocking to the systems and the nervous system. I was afraid for our safety at some points. I was really afraid.

Rebecca Ching: You were afraid for your safety?

Lisa Gungor: Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Tell me more.

Lisa Gungor: You just don’t know. Like, if someone thinks that we are leading people to hell, people do crazy things in the name of God, and it's wild even now, even some people who we felt turned their backs on us or didn’t show up, they're in that place now, and they were just like, "I was so scared to question, and you guys were saying the things that I wanted to say, but I didn’t know how to say it," and it just feels wild that this -- even in that moment, in that time that that was happening for us, we weren't even saying deconstruction because nobody was saying that word. I was like I don’t -- oh, deconstruction. Okay, that makes sense. I guess that’s what's happening, but it is wild on this side of it. There's so much freedom. It seems just bananas that it was so dramatic, and, I mean, very painful. I'm not dismissing the pain and the drama of it. It was, but now, knowing how tight I was clinging to these ideas and clinging to my identity and who I -- oh my god, I wanted to be an important person in the church, and not just an important person, I wanted to be righteous. I wanted to know that I had the truth, and I wanted to love God and serve people, and the church was just my life, and just so much of my identity was wrapped up in this idea of who I should be.

0:20:15

Rebecca Ching: Mm, we're gonna dig more into that in a bit. I want to ask one more question about deconstruction. This word started coming up a lot and digging in, and I started noticing many faith leaders or even leaders in business spaces would just roll their eyes and devalue those who were committed to deconstructing the systems that they're living and working in today along with their beliefs. I'm wondering what you would say to these leaders who just dismiss the deconstruction process, and maybe deconstruction is probably too much. It's even the questioning process.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah, I would say that it's not a fad, it's not some fun thing to process. I think that's what a lot of people think, and that's just not true for the person deconstructing. It's a real process. For some it feels freeing. For some it feels terrifying, and when we are going through that, the best thing for a leader in that space to do is be a listener, not a teacher.

Rebecca Ching: I love that.

Lisa Gungor: Oh, my gosh, and I know I have done this in the past as well. If you're not having the experience, it's not happening for other people, [Laughs] but people who are having an experience that a church leader isn’t having feels threatening, and it is threatening to the system. If everyone's not aligned and believing this way, then there's no funnel, there's no one in power.

Rebecca Ching: Mm-hmm.

Lisa Gungor: And deconstruction is threatening to power systems.

Rebecca Ching: You got it.

Lisa Gungor: And so, I think you could look at your own ego and say, "What is it that I'm scared of losing here, and am I really scared? Do I really think I have the power?" I think that's easy to see. It was easy for me to see. In, like, a Catholic church we have a Priest, there's a very dominant head of this. There's a very structured hierarchy. A lot of people are responding out of fear and a lot of fear that they don’t have control or power over other people.

0:22:13

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, I think you're spot on. Be a listener, not a teacher, and listening is its own full-contact sport, but you have to do the work to really listen. I mean, I've got two decades as a psychotherapist. I could do the pretend-listening face.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah. [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: I could do that, and I can do the nod and the right inflections at the right time, but to really listen means, again, coming back to a place of really staying in a place of curiosity but also it's an Imago Dei moment. It's really just understanding who is in front of you and what are they speaking to if they're an image bearer, you know?

Lisa Gungor: Right.

Rebecca Ching: That there's the -- to really listen -- and, again, I think a lot of people take -- it's scary when you've had power and you feel entitled to power, and, again, whether it's faith-based space or not, but we're seeing a conflation. I mean, faith and business have become conflated (it's an area that I've been thinking about for a while) and weaponized in politics, right? Faith, business, politics, it's like ew.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And something that's so sacred and precious has really weaponized and done so much harm, but when we go to a place of true listening and true curiosity and honoring -- but yeah, the unknown is very scary if you have nothing else to fall on other than entitled or inherited power.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: So I love that. I want to shift a little bit to your book, The Most Beautiful Thing I've Seen: Opening Your Eyes to Wonder. On page 88, you wrote a little bit about how you had some shifts that you were making even in your band, Gungor. You said, "People often ask when the turning point for us was in music. It was once we stopped scraping and trying to get someone, anyone, to like our music. Once we began creating, unafraid of what vulnerability might cost us, we became more honest with the wrestle of life. Once we stopped caring what honesty might mean for our acceptance, that's when our careers changed."

0:24:14

[Sigh] I just want to let that breathe. I got back to that a lot. What were the stakes for you -- and I really want you to talk about you -- at this time?

Lisa Gungor: Well, yeah, at that time, I was struggling with infertility, and that was a hard thing to talk about publicly because people had so many opinions on why [Laughs] that was happening and what I should do about it. I'll push pause on that infertility thing.

I started writing songs when I was young, but I didn’t really feel like I knew what to do with them, and then along came the worship movement, and I met Michael in college, and I started really trying to write a specific way, and I was like all right, this is what people do in church, and this is the kind of songs that are needed, and I tried so hard, and I really am grateful because Michael would be like, "That's a great song, but that's not your voice. You know you're trying to be something else." I'd be like, "Yep. Yep. I know. I know." And so, yeah, I think once -- I was still trying to do that here and there. I remember I went to a writer's workshop where someone said (one of the teachers), "You don’t write for yourself. You write for the audience. What does the audience want to hear?" And so, they were all just these stories that I was creating from that just got to the point when I was struggling with infertility I was like, "Okay, there's all these stories. This doesn’t work for me anymore. I don’t know what they want to hear, and even if I'm trying and it's not connecting --," and that's when I wrote "Beautiful Things."

0:26:03

I started writing "Beautiful Things," and Michael and I finished it together, but it was just like that really was probably the first big turn for me that nobody knew about. When I was writing that song, it started, and I was saying, "We make beautiful things," because I didn’t believe that God did it anymore. I was like this isn’t true, I'm struggling to have a kid, and I'm doing everything I know to do. Name it, and claim it, and believe it, you know? All these formulaic things that so many of us have tried, and it wasn’t happening, and so, I remember just sitting at the piano and being like I don’t believe any of this. I hadn’t prayed in years. I didn’t read the bible anymore, and nobody knew, and so, I started writing "Beautiful Things," and that was a chorus that I was just singing to myself every day because I wanted to believe again that everything that we experienced is, like --- the universe is all for us, you know, but at that point in my life I just was like no, none of his is true.

And so, yeah, I felt like it was really the turning point for me to be honest and talk about the pain of life. It's kind of funny, I threw that song away 'cause I got really annoyed with it. [Laughs] Then it was a while later that I came back to it. It was just the process. It was the process that was happening to me. I mean, yeah, and then it felt like I finally was able to sing it and believe it, and that's when I changed it to, "You make beautiful things," and even now I still love that song. A lot of our songs have this directionality to it of, like, the guy in the sky, but now, for me, I feel and sense that God, source, love, whatever your best word is for it -- I mean, I really think all the words fail, but it's everywhere so I can still sing that to the all.

0:28:05

Rebecca Ching: Mm, it became your mantra. You know, and I'm struck, too, how you talked about writing and your husband mirrored back, "This isn’t your voice. This isn’t really you. You're trying to be someone else," and I'm thinking how much we all need people like that in our life when we're showing up with the who we should be or what we should say. It's amazing how much we breathe in the scripts and the armor and the masks of fitting in. I'm also struck about you going to your writer's workshop -- I mean, and anyone in business knows, "You don’t write for yourself. You write for our audience," and, I mean, yes, there's truth, but I think there's something about art, like, true artistry --

Lisa Gungor: Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Ching: -- that transcends a business transaction.

Lisa Gungor: Right. Right, it's totally different! Yeah, you just can't fit art or creativity in that box, yeah. Yeah, you have to speak from the heart. This is the only experience I'm having so why not write from this experience? There's gotta be someone else who resonates somewhere.

Rebecca Ching: And it's a permission. Like you said earlier, when you started questioning and becoming public about it, the friends and the other people in your life that stuck around (or even people in your community that you were leading) were like, "Thank you. Me too, and I've been so alone. I've been so alone."

And so, I'm curious if there's anything else that comes to mind. You talked about when you began creating unafraid of what vulnerability might cost you. What has that kind of vulnerability cost you?

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: And also, what has it given you?

Lisa Gungor: Yeah, I mean, it's felt like it's cost us everything. I mean, our career really took a dive. Finances took a dive. We became almost obsolete. It threatened every relationship we have, but I would say it's given us what's true.

0:30:06

Yeah, again, anything that can be taken is not the real thing and, I don’t think, serves us. It's given us more authentic relationships and we can be ourselves. Oh, to be able to breathe and be yourself, that's --

Rebecca Ching: Life.

Lisa Gungor: That's life! Yeah, like, what else are we working towards and why would we ever work towards something else? I get it. I get that there's this idea of success, but then you're building a prison for yourself. Oh, my gosh. [Laughs] I don’t want in that prison. There are so many people who are afraid to live, to love who they want to love, to believe what they feel in their heart is true. I know that sounds dramatic, but it feels like it cost us everything, but it gave everything as well.

Rebecca Ching: I wonder, too -- I've spoken with a lot of folks who've been through pretty big kind of shifts in their life when they leaned into their truth, and they were terrified. They were terrified, terrified, terrified, and then they did it, and it was like bracing and sometimes it was a rough aftermath, but there was an exhale. There was a becoming. There was a clarity.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: You know, in IFS we talk about self-leadership. It was this embodying more presence of courage and compassion and clarity and calm, and so, that place of anticipatory what-if-I-lose-my-belonging, right -- we're hardwired to want that. What if I lose that, but we end up belonging more when we really lean into and integrate what is true, and there's so much invested in us not doing that. There's so much invested.

0:32:04

I'm curious what still gets in the way of you creating and making music with this kind of freedom, and how do you recalibrate when you're pulled away from what you value?

Lisa Gungor: I think what can get in the way for me is a feeling of -- I mean, there's such a -- creating content. You’ve got Instagram or TikTok, and it can just feel like a lot. I can feel really overwhelmed with social media and then feel like I have to conjure up something [Laughs] that I'll be like, "I don’t know! I have nothing funny to say." [Laughs] Then I just will stay off for, like, a month. That's my relationship with social media. Oh, my god. I mean, yeah, not to write it off completely. There are some things I love about it. It's really connected me with the down syndrome community and friends. I'm not a one-sided person with social media, but when it comes to work, I can just feel stressed out about it if I have to post something and I'm putting my art out, but I calibrate, really, through meditation. I'll just, like, sit and center myself. If I'm feeling that anxiety, I'll just sit, notice my heart, just breathe, and really just come back to myself. I go, "What am I doing? Why am I writing this? Is there some kind of ego-attachment inflammation happening here? If so, where am I, and what is it that my heart wants to say?"

[Inspirational Music Interlude]

Rebecca Ching: Leading is hard, and leading is also, often, controversial as you navigate staying aligned to your values, your mission, your boundaries, your beliefs.

0:34:03

Navigating the inevitable controversy can challenge your confidence, clarity, and calm. Now, I know you don’t mind making the hard decisions, but sometimes the stakes seem higher and can bring up echoes of old doubts and insecurities during times when you need to feel rock solid on your plan and action. Finding a coach who gets the nuances of your business and leading in our complex and polarized world can help you identify the blocks that keep you playing at safe and small.

Leading today is not a fancy title or fluffy bragging rights, it is brave and bold work to stay the course when the future is unknown and the doubts and pains from the past (and the present) keep showing up to shake things up. Internal emotional practices and systemic strategies are needed to keep the protector of cynicism at bay and foster a hope that is actionable and aligned.

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To start your Unburdened Leader Coaching process with me go to www.rebeccaching.com and book a free connection call. I can’t wait to hear from you!

[End Inspirational Music Interlude]

I want to shift to something else I noticed in your work, whether it's in your book or just other conversations. I saw you write and speak a lot about the burdens of labels, right?

Lisa Gungor: Mm-hmm.

0:36:01

Rebecca Ching: And humans' continual love of them, and that's why I was like, "Ooh, tell me more. I'm with you!" And, for me, I mean, we sure like things known and tidy which often boxes people in.

Lisa Gungor: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: So I'd love for you to talk about what labels have been particularly challenging for you to shake, and which labels have been the most offensive or destructive as they've been turned towards you.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah, I think one is the label of a woman and what it is that a woman does. In talking about this now, I know this conversation has been happening forever, but there was definitely a time where there were people in my family who were upset that I was like, "Hey, Michael, maybe you should do your laundry." [Laughs] Just really trying hard to fulfill that gender script, and that was a hard one to tear apart. I think even having the label of being a Christian, and because I had a script along with what that was, I think that was very destructive. That came along with so many things, but also purity culture came along with that --

Rebecca Ching: Oh.

Lisa Gungor: -- and what I should and shouldn't do with my body, and how much or how little of my skin I should show.

Rebecca Ching: I want to tee it up to purity culture too --

Lisa Gungor: Okay.

Rebecca Ching: -- and just kind of what it means to be -- we talked about just in terms of gender and even the labels and impact of what it means to be "Christian enough," right?

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: We're talking just days after a leaked draft of a change in the law of the land around Roe V. Wade is stirring up a lot of conversations of, "If you believe -- if you really own this identity, this label, then there's one way to do it."

Lisa Gungor: Right? [Laughs]

0:38:02

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs] There's one way to share it, yeah. I have a hard time -- I mentioned this to you before we started -- there's this part in your book, this excerpt, that when I first read it, it got in me in the best of ways. It really gave language to something I was working through, and just the lonely few years of navigating parenting a daughter who isn’t typical to the world's standards, and I think even just what it means to be normal. To me, that's one of those labels. "This is normal."

Lisa Gungor: Ugh.

Rebecca Ching: That’s where I just start dropping the F-bombs, you know, and empowering my kids to push back when they say, "This is the way it should be done," and, "This is what it means to be good," right?

Lisa Gungor: Oh, my gosh, yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Like, “good,” and “enough” -- all of those labels. It's amazing how much my kids have breathed that inner beautiful, like, this is beautiful. What really is? And so, particularly, with my daughter's autism diagnosis, having a clinical background and understanding these things, you know, and I would read these books myself, and I just kept putting things down going, "Ugh, this is not helping." This is not helping. This is actually furthering. I feel like it's othering even more. I want to understand the brain. I want to understand how I can help. I always said I wanted her to be able to communicate the best she could, written and verbally, whatever that looked like. I just knew that if she could communicate what she needed, what she wanted -- I just felt like that was such a big deal, but in terms of how community experiences the label of autism and, for you, I know you experienced a diagnosis of down syndrome with your second daughter, and I'd love for you to read from page 140 in your book -- I believe you have it nearby --

Lisa Gungor: Yep!

Rebecca Ching: The excerpt we spoke about that kind of talks about this.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

0:40:02

Rebecca Ching: And then we'll take it from there, and I'll see if I can keep my shit together while you're reading. [Laughs]

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs] Let it fly. Let the shit fly. [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs]

Lisa Gungor: Okay. "I know it was meant to prepare me, but the more I read, the more I didn’t find Lucy in the pages. It was just information, definitions, facts. I realized our words and definitions do a great job of explaining something complex, but definitions just can't hold the essence of a life. I wondered what it would have been like to give birth to a child with down syndrome before the syndrome was labeled. Would we be able to see the child instead of the definition? Would I have been so scared? Typical babies don't get a book of lists handed to them on the first day. 'Hey, baby --,'" and this is me talking to Lucy in the hospital. So, yeah, Lucy was recovering from her first surgery. She had it two-days old, and so, I'm sitting on the couch, and she's in this little bassinet, and I said, "'Hey, baby girl, this list, it is not who you are, my love,' I said silently, more my soul speaking it to hers. 'You are not a list. You are not an outline of concerns or health risks. You are a gift, perfect, and I know you're gonna show us all a thing or two about what it means to live a full life no matter how many years you get.'"

Rebecca Ching: Yeah. How are these words different from the conventional wisdom you were facing?

Lisa Gungor: [Deep breath] I think the typical words you get are not about the essence of a human being; they are all about what to be afraid of and the difference. It's all about the difference and packed full of fear and what we should be afraid of with that difference. It's very dualistic instead of -- it's very separating instead of connecting.

Rebecca Ching: It's so reductive, too, right?

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: It's like these words don't define this life that your heart's exploding for.

Lisa Gungor: Right.

0:42:03

Rebecca Ching: For me, too, and I'm going on the next level. My daughter is turning 14 tomorrow, at the recording of this.

Lisa Gungor: Oh, wow. Wow!

Rebecca Ching: I know. I know, and seeing -- just reflecting on a lot, but that it is distancing, it is othering, it fosters fear versus it's just another aspect, right? There's so much -- we think it's a failing or something. You know, it's like this -- yeah, it's just complicated, and it's forced me to face my ableism on a whole other level.

Lisa Gungor: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: My fears and concerns or also noticing what we're helping her do. Are we helping her conform --

Lisa Gungor: Right.

Rebecca Ching: -- or do we need to help shake things up in the spaces we're in so that they can change, which is its own beast, right?

Lisa Gungor: Oh, my gosh. It is its own beast. Oh, my god, I mean, we just had -- you know, I'm sure you're familiar with all the evaluations that happen in school, and we just had one that was two-hours long, and it was two hours of people saying that Lucy's behind in school and just so way behind for two hours. I actually made a joke during part of the meeting as they were telling us, "So do you have any concerns when you see where she's at?" I go -- I was like, "Wait a minute. Are you telling us she has down syndrome?" [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs]

Lisa Gungor: 'Cause, like, wait, what are we doing! You're comparing her -- what's the normal.

Rebecca Ching: Exactly.

Lisa Gungor: What does that even mean? What does that fucking mean?

Rebecca Ching: I agree.

Lisa Gungor: Like, a group of people decided what that is based on their experience of the world, not based on someone -- it just blows my mind. I'm getting stuck on my words 'cause I'm like how are we doing this and why is this a thing that there's a measurement system based on fuckin' who?

0:44:12

Rebecca Ching: Well, and then circling back to what we started talking about as you started deconstructing, and the powers at play, that this is not the way that you do faith, you know, and there are folks -- this is not how you do this business.

Lisa Gungor: Right.

Rebecca Ching: This is not how you do education. It's all connected, and I'm starting to see that more and more.

Lisa Gungor: Right.

Rebecca Ching: My husband is a veteran educator, and so, he talked me down quite a bit 'cause we translated. He's like, "This is the system. These are good people in a system. This is what they know. We don’t have to agree with the system, but let's not do bodily harm to the folks delivering the messages." He was able to -- he did it in the most beautiful way even though he threatens -- like, what are you saying to me?

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: "We are defending our daughter! We are gonna burn this down!" He's like, "Great, and this is our community, and these are --," but he helped translate that so we could help them know that their worth wasn’t on the line, that it helped transform. Let's take a look at what normal is, but it took a lot of work to get there because it was like who decided this, and there's this less-than, this hierarchy, again, that I see my kids -- like, they breathed it in themselves.

Lisa Gungor: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: And you touched on this a little bit already, but now that you have some more space from these words that you read, space from her birth and those early surgeries, how do those words land with you now, and I'm so curious what Lucy is teaching you today.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah. Ugh, oh, my god, she's hilarious, this child! I think she always teaches me to be present and even things that I'm holding onto, I can be so caught up in thought, in the past, in just ruminating about things and kind of have an obsessive tendency to just really go 'round and 'round and 'round with an idea or something that I've done, and when I witness Lucy, she'll do it and she's done. That's it.

Rebecca Ching: Huh.

0:46:14

Lisa Gungor: She's so present [Laughs] and so honest and full of life. Like, oh my god, [Laughs] one of my best friends, our girls were playing in the backyard together the other day, and they were splashing, and the look on Lucy's face, I took a picture of it, and my friend and I were looking at it, and it made her cry. She was so overcome with the joy that Lucy was experiencing 'cause Lucy was just eating up the moment, man, like, eating up life and just so loving being in the pool with her best friend. They're naked and they're splashing, and it just seemed like there's no hindrance. She's fully in her body, you know? She's in her body, and she's loving life, and every day is such a -- she reminds me about that, and I'm like, all right, I want to be like Lu.

Rebecca Ching: Well, and that brings me to kind of where I want to shift our conversation, that, in addition to creating music and writing, you're also leading workshops on embodiment.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: I'd love for you to walk me through what embodied leadership means to you. These terms are thrown around a lot, especially around more of the business-training spaces, and, I mean, even there is some good meaning behind it, but I want to hear from you what embodied leadership means to you.

Lisa Gungor: Hmm, I actually haven’t heard that, like, the embodied leadership. I haven't heard that before.

Rebecca Ching: So what comes up, then, when I say it?

Lisa Gungor: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, immediately, what comes up for me is, like, I don’t like it. [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: Ooh.

Lisa Gungor: I think I have a little bit of an aversion to the word "leadership."

Rebecca Ching: Ooh, tell me more.

0:48:01

Lisa Gungor: Yeah, this is real-time happening. I'm like why do I have an aversion? I think because leadership, in my story, has so meant don't be authentic, and put on a thing. Put on this garb, and let's pretend you're more important than other people, and your ideas are -- why are they more important? Why is the thing that I think about faith -- why is everyone listening to that? That is what was kind of bananas to me. I just think the way I've thought about leadership and the way I've experienced leadership has been unhealthy, and when I think about myself, what it means to be an embodied person, I would prefer that. I don’t want to see myself as an embodied leader. I would just be like no, how am I just an embodied person? For me, that's having every part of my body connected 'cause I think there are times of my life I was like, "Oh, right now, I'm so in my head. Oh, right now, I'm so in my heart. Oh, right now, I'm so in my gut," and I'm way more in tune now with it than I think I ever been, and I'm still learning, but I can feel what it's like to shut my heart down because I've thought, "Oh, this is the place where emotions reside, and I need to just be a head-person here and make a decision off of that."

Rebecca Ching: I want to nudge a little bit more on this leadership (leader word) because my sense is you claiming the word "I am a leader" brings up a -- and it makes sense, especially with your story and what you experience of leadership, it makes sense, at least from an outsider's perspective. For me, I see I'm a systems-trained thinker, so, for me, a leader is someone, whenever you enter the room, the physics of that room changes, so the challenge is how do we want to impact that room.

Lisa Gungor: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: And so, I look at the work that you've done and are doing and even some that people don't even see.

0:50:00

You know, I know that, as a partner and as a mom, you're having an impact on the room. So how do you want to own your leadership at this season of your life?

Lisa Gungor: Mm, yeah. I think my desire is to really see people. I think it used to be when I would walk into a room and I knew people that knew who I was, I would try to maintain some kind of, like, "be something for them." Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Oh.

Lisa Gungor: And, now, I try to posture myself with going how could I see them? Instead of them seeing me, how can I really see people. How can I not put on that garb, that identity of what I think I should be for someone else, but really just be in the moment and taking away these ideas of, like, this relational transaction. This is who this person is to me. This is who I am. This is who they are. I love getting in the space where that doesn’t exist so you can really be in the moment with someone.

Rebecca Ching: So then circling back to embodied leadership, does it feel a little different if you put it on?

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: As we unpack it a little bit, tell me more. What's standing out to you as you start to think about what embodied leadership means to you?

Lisa Gungor: That's great. Good job. Wow, you really brought this back around. [Laughs] You know what you're doing. Yeah, I think that's modeling authenticity and vulnerability. If I'm present with myself -- yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Keep going.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah. [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: If you're present with yourself…

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: I'm punching the air right now. I'm super excited! Like this is it!

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: Sorry, I got excited.

Lisa Gungor: That's good. I'm so glad. Yeah, it's the leadership. The more that I am present and authentic to who I am instead of who I've been told -- stepping out of any script or role and being in my heart, being in my body, as much as possible in every moment. Yeah, that's what embodied leadership would be.

0:52:13

Rebecca Ching: So, for you, what is living an embodied life for you now, and how is it different from earlier in your life and career?

Lisa Gungor: I think I'm listening more. I think earlier in my career I had preset answers, and now, I can be more in the moment and feel what I'm feeling and know how to articulate that without fear.

Rebecca Ching: Presence, clarity, courage -- I'm hearing self-leadership right here, again. Yeah, and then curiosity -- what am I feeling? This is often what I say when I work with folks, "What are you feeling? Where are you feeling it in and around your body?" Noticing, and just exploring further. It's not an efficient process, but it's a very rich process, right?

Lisa Gungor: Oh, it's so good. I remember my friend and colleague, Hillary McBride, when we first started working together and becoming friends, she'd be like, "Where do you feel that in your body?" That was such a strange question to me. I mean, [Laughs] we definitely would make fun of it after a while. Like, "Oh, tell me where you're feeling that in your body," but it's so good, and it goes back to those labels. Yeah, coming back to listening. What is that? Not labeling it, just noticing.

Rebecca Ching: I'm curious, what do the younger parts of you think about 2022-you today?

Lisa Gungor: Oh, my god! That's a great question. Oh, I mean, I think even last year I would be like, "Oh, she's, like -- what have you done! [Laughs] What have you done?" But I think, now, she's so proud. She's so proud of me for being brave and finding myself. Yeah, finding my inner teacher.

0:54:07

Rebecca Ching: You touched on this earlier about success, and I just want to ask you briefly about how you view success, especially after experiencing a level of fame. I mean, a couple Grammy nominations and especially within the Christian subculture fame as its own kind of thing. I'm curious how you define success now and how is it different from what you were taught?

Lisa Gungor: Oh, I mean, I think it is that why gain the world and lose your soul -- I think I'm like oh, yeah, I get that now. I think I used to think success was money and stability (or the illusion of stability, really). Yeah, it got to the point where I'm like well, wait a minute. Why do I care about people liking me? What is that mechanism? Why is that there? That doesn’t give me anything. I mean, I think if you have it long enough you can realize that it doesn’t give you something true. Yeah, now, I feel success -- when I go through my day, success really is can I stay in my heart?

Rebecca Ching: Oof.

Lisa Gungor: How much can I just stay in my heart? Even after writing the book or going to the Grammys, you think that there's some arrival, and we've heard everyone who has achieved this cultural idea of success has said the same thing. "I thought it would be this and then it wasn’t." "I thought fame would be fulfilling, and it wasn’t." You keep chasing something. There's no end point. You never get there, and then, that's just a whole wild experience of, like, what is there? There is, whoa, it's only this moment. Everything else is memory. Everything else is thought.

0:56:06

This moment right here is the only thing to get to, and so, how in my heart can I be in every moment that I have the honor of experiencing in life? That makes everything -- oof, like, yeah, getting a little teary. That makes everything holy. This is what I love in scripture, noticing all the bushes are burning. They noticed it was holy ground. Nothing magical happened in that moment that wasn’t already happening; they were just embodied enough to feel it and experience it -- present enough to the moment to experience the magic of every moment.

Rebecca Ching: I'm listening to you talk going oh, [Sigh] I know, presence, and sometimes presence isn’t bliss.

Lisa Gungor: Right.

Rebecca Ching: Sometimes real presence is exquisitely painful --

Lisa Gungor: Right.

Rebecca Ching: -- and tender. There is something when you're in that sense of embodiment and just noticing that there is an energy about that and a freedom in that and a clarity in that, that feels fleeting, and it feels immensely precious, and there's so much that's just wanting us not to be present, right? Even right now, it's easier for me to go to outrage, and I know my outrage is gonna take me to action and, you know, to things that need to be said and to be done with my time, with my energy, with my resources, how I support people doing that, too, and so, there is sometimes these moments of just being with even our pain. There is a place where we're also very alive and very embodied, and if we're befriending it, it doesn’t always take us out. Sometimes I think it can, but I don’t think it always takes us out when we befriend that, and not in a patronizing power-over way, but in an abiding-with and so, that's kind of what I'm taking from what you're saying.

Lisa Gungor: Yes, yes.

0:58:06

Rebecca Ching: So one last question before I go to some quick-fire questions. I think I know the answer, but I want to ask it anyways.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah?

Rebecca Ching: Is this what you thought you'd be doing today?

Lisa Gungor: Ah, no! [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs]

Lisa Gungor: No, like, in general of life, no. I didn't. I didn’t at all.

Rebecca Ching: What are you working on right now?

Lisa Gungor: Well, we're actually working on a new album, and I didn’t even think we'd be doing that, but we are working on a worship album. [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: Really?

Lisa Gungor: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. That was so perfect. I love the face. I love it. I love it.

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs] I gave Lisa a face.

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs] Like, "Wait, what? Come again?" Even one of my best friends, she's like, "Wait, what are you singing to?" I'm like, "Yeah, I think this is all sourcing God." Again, whatever word you want to call it, whatever is happening, I feel the center of it is love, and so, singing -- I still love to come back to this -- not come back to. I've always loved singing worship songs. Not the ones that are like, "A guy in the sky, us against them," the ones that are separating, no; the ones that are connecting, yes.

Rebecca Ching: I'm here for that.

Lisa Gungor: And so, we've been writing a lot of songs, and we are wrapping up the album this week.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, my gosh, congratulations!

Lisa Gungor: Thanks, yeah, it's been so fun! Oh, just getting back into just the depths of music, it's so good. It's been wild writing from an embodied place. I can feel it. If I'm writing a song, I just go to a certain place. I'm like okay, oof, all right, how am I even posturing my body as I write this? Am I, like, all tensed up? It's kind of wild how I approach my work now.

1:00:03

So we're working on that. I'm working on some dates with my friend Hillary, some Sacred Feminine dates for these retreats that we do. I'm working on my own music. I have music out under -- it's called Isa (I-S-A) Ma (M-A). So that's Isa Ma, and yeah, we've got a lot of stuff cooking. There are some other things that I probably shouldn’t say yet 'cause they're not that developed, but I'm really excited about them. Just lots of creative stuff comin'.

Rebecca Ching: When you're ready and able to talk about them, please come on back.

So I've got some quick-fire questions I want to ask before we close out. What are you reading right now, Lisa?

Lisa Gungor: Oh, my gosh. That is really hard because I read many books at a time. So I'm reading -- I've just finished up a class on the Bhagavad Gita that I loved, and specifically, Ram Dass has a book called Pass to God, where he teaches on the Bhagavad Gita. So I'm reading that. I'm reading The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide. I'm reading Awakening the Body. I'm reading The Women Who Run with Wolves. It's really good.

Rebecca Ching: Ooh.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: That's dense, but good.

Lisa Gungor: Dense, yeah. Yeah, it's real dense.

Rebecca Ching: So I'm very curious, what song are you playing on repeat right now?

Lisa Gungor: Well, yeah, I hope this doesn’t sound super ego or something, but we've just finished recording a song, and I can't stop listening to it. There's this magic in it that all the musicians brought. We've got these two guys in our backhouse right now who are recording with us and oh, just the magic, the vibe, the feel, the energy they're bringing to it, I just have been listening to it on repeat. I'm excited for it to come out.

Rebecca Ching: All right, now I am very much so too. The face is gone, and the anticipation is here.

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs]

1:02:02

Rebecca Ching: All right, what is the best TV show or movie you have seen recently?

Lisa Gungor: Oh, my gosh, I've never said this before. I've never had a favorite movie of my life, but the movie Everything Everywhere All at Once is my favorite movie of my life. It's in the theaters right now.

Rebecca Ching: Okay, dangit. I know, we haven’t gone back to the theatre yet, but you're the second person that's said this to me so, all right, I might have to mask up and take the plunge!

Lisa Gungor: Take it.

Rebecca Ching: I heard it was phenomenal.

Lisa Gungor: Oh, yeah.

Rebecca Ching: What is your favorite '80s movie or pop culture piece from the '80s?

Lisa Gungor: Oh, The Princess Bride.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, of course. What is your mantra right now?

Lisa Gungor: I think the most recent is you are love. You are love. You are love. So instead of -- it used to be a directionality to it -- you are loved. You just are. You are love

Rebecca Ching: That's beautiful. What's an unpopular opinion you hold?

Lisa Gungor: Mm, that Christmas music can be played at any time of the year.

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs] That is unpopular.

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs] Nobody wants that! Everybody else is like, "This is when you can listen to this," and I'm like, "You're gonna put a rule on when I feel good? No!"

Rebecca Ching: No. You reject that. That's a very polarizing topic, though. It's hilarious. People have very strong feelings about one camp or the other.

Lisa Gungor: Oh, they really do.

Rebecca Ching: It's a funny one.

Lisa Gungor: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: And lastly, who or what inspires you to be a better leader and human?

Lisa Gungor: Mm, I love so many authors. I feel like I could rattle off so many different people. The spiritual teachers that I, in this season of my life, am really resonating with are Eckhart Tolle, Ram Dass, and Mirabai Starr, but I think, also, my kids. That might sound cliché, but it's so true.

1:04:04

Rebecca Ching: Clichés are cliché for a reason.

Lisa Gungor: Yep.

Rebecca Ching: They're very universal.

Lisa Gungor: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Ching: Lisa, this was a pleasure. I am honored and so grateful for our time together today, and I know those listening are gonna get a lot out of hearing you share from your heart and your story. So thank you so much for your time.

Lisa Gungor: Yeah, thank you so much. This has been so wonderful.

Rebecca Ching: When we can hold space for the discomfort of questions and pushback, we build trust and foster health and safety, but this process is messy and scary to so many who lead today, but because Lisa named and spoke her questions and held to the truth of her experience, others came forward and felt less alone. This is such a powerful reminder to speak up and share our doubts because others are often feeling similarly.

So I'm wondering how do you respond when you're questioned or those you lead or care for are questioning things that you hold dear? What comes up for you when someone in the public eye changes their mind or starts to question a closely-held belief? How can you build the capacity to hold space for questioning and doubt so not to see it through fear but through courage? Now, we all have a responsibility to cultivate spaces where there's permission to ask the hard questions and to make sure that being right does not come before respect and dignity in relationships, even when we deeply disagree. Now, this is the work on an unburdened leader.

Thank you so much for joining this episode of The Unburdened Leader. You can sign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader email, find this episode, show notes, and also free Unburdened Leader resources, along with ways to work with me www.rebeccaching.com.

EP 55: Embodied Leadership: Pushing Back and Speaking Truth with Lisa Gungor

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